On September 4, 2011, Phish played a show in Commerce City, CO at Dick's Sporting Goods Park. The final show of their summer tour was immediately lauded by fans for its outstanding merits. It was simply, a great show. But a very tiny event on that evening lead to a yearlong battle where friendships were tested as two sides of a heated argument began. Did Phish tease The Modern Lovers "Roadrunner" during a jam in "Piper?"
During the show there were numerous tweets leaving the venue alluding to this connection. In the following days, the Phish.net working group team debated the merits of this claim in a manner likened only to hyenas fighting over fresh kill. On one side, the defense, a group of individuals who argued that the similarity of the jam so obviously harkened back to the main riff in "Roadrunner" that it would be foolish to ignore the similarity in riff. On the other side, the prosecution, who surmised that the two pieces of music were in no way similar when you compared the melody and rhythm. According to my gmail archive, I have no less than 58 threads containing the term roadrunner. That basically amounts to someone bringing it up more than once a week. Needless to say, it was kind of a big deal, and even when someone brought it up as a joke, it really wasn't a joke.
Fast forward to this weekend in San Francisco. Several people tweeted about and directly emailed the setlist team about a Mumford and Sons tease in Sunday night's "Crosseyed and Painless". Like salt in an unhealed wound the Dick's "Piper" came charging back in, this time with the prosecution presenting the audio included above as evidence. And after much deliberation, under the cover of darkness, the "Roadrunner" tease was removed.
So why was it removed? In simple terms, because the majority of people in the discussion felt that it didn't belong. That's not to say that it doesn't exist (it doesn't but you can believe whatever you choose) but rather that we're not willing to put it in print. Hundreds if not thousands of potential teases are out there, but as outsiders we will never be able to measure the intent of the band. In most cases of these obscure teases, I believe that the band has simply played something in the moment that is resoundingly similar to another piece of music, by accident. There are certainly numerous teases listed in the setlist file that fall into this category as well. From an editorial sense all we can do is review people's "ideas" and the rate them based on a comparison with the original cited material. Sometimes it's obvious, most times it's not. The other problem is that once someone plants the seed in your head, the brain is conditioned to expect it and often times leads you to hearing something that may not be there.
But in the end, the activity is pretty fun and many people enjoy it. That's not going to change. This is one of those special little wrinkles that make Phish so fabulous. We spent a year (collectively) arguing one tiny little point, so insignificant that 99% of people never knew it existed, smarter individuals might say this is a symptom of insanity. So, goodbye Roadrunner tease, you had a great run. Don't let the door hit you as you leave.
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Phish.net is a non-commercial project run by Phish fans and for Phish fans under the auspices of the all-volunteer, non-profit Mockingbird Foundation.
This project serves to compile, preserve, and protect encyclopedic information about Phish and their music.
Credits | Terms Of Use | Legal | DMCA
The Mockingbird Foundation is a non-profit organization founded by Phish fans in 1996 to generate charitable proceeds from the Phish community.
And since we're entirely volunteer – with no office, salaries, or paid staff – administrative costs are less than 2% of revenues! So far, we've distributed over $2 million to support music education for children – hundreds of grants in all 50 states, with more on the way.
I really love this kind of debate because it underscores the aesthetic process between the original impetus of the art and the context in which it is received by a community. I guess the idea for me is that once the music is heard it ceases to be an indivisible artifact but becomes a fluid source for responses from the audience. This is especially true for live music, to the point that even having an audience changes the music while it is being created. We phish fans are so used to this concept by now, but take a step back and think about that! Art is being created before our very eyes and ears and our response is a participation with it so much so that it actually changes, fuels, instigates that fluid art to new forms at the very moment of creation. That is still mind-boggling to me from a philosophic point of view.
Further though, after it is over and once it has been archived, that participation continues and is evidenced by the threads on the posts in this blog. Art has the capacity to change each individual at the subjective level to the point where it exists as a process between the source and the individuals receiving it. This capacity for change is to me the difference between creating things and creating art. The desk that I sit at was created by someone yet it has no intrinsic artistic value; I use it as equipment. However, a phish show moves us. Even if its not the best show and even if only has moments, it still moves us.
The best art seems to be that which is holds watershed resonance within a culture. It is that which changes what the perceived parameters are for what art itself can be, and how it can be. I would argue that the phish community is undoubtedly a culture onto its own. Those shows that change how the culture perceives the band are moments that transcend the pre-limitations we unconsciously place on the forms that that music can take. This is part of the experiential truth of art, a sea change where chaos is embraced and entirely new forms of communication enter the flow of the collected phish consciousness. Phish jams themselves are a microcosm of this, and the best ones echo the human process: striving against chaos to create form, embracing chaos to create the new, and the resurgence of the vitality of life to celebrate the process itself.
The Roadrunner tease and the Disease controversy are snapshots of the ongoing process of the ethotic transmutation of phish art. They acknowledge the very factual state of the historicity of art as that which has prior signposts and antecedents of musical form and reference. Simply, phish did not bubble out of a vacuum; their communication has reference to prior artistic communication. This resonates with the band creating art, or any art being created for that matter, that must respond to past forms. Long lasting artists must strive to break into the new, and must also bear the considerable weight of past works. The weight of freedom then is a double edged sword: to seek the new out of the ashes and glue of the old, and to carry that weight beyond chaos and into new forms.
The teases and jams seem to take on more significance within this doubled greater context. Teases of other artists works (usually not Fishman covers!) are an acknowledgement of this prior context, and to me seem to represent an acceptance of the bear fact that much of what can be done has already been done. It is a reflection of the world at large within the world phish has created, and an immediate signpost recognizing this fact. Yet, phish will not be denied. They play. Playfully, and I suggest we all go read the lyrics to playin in the band again. The debate on whether or not a tease is actually a tease, to me, references a myriad of hermeneutic interchanges between past and present, present and future, and source and receptors. While striving against the known echoes of the past, they can either give in and play on the themes of the artistic-cultural macrocosm or they can refuse the embrace and shift against the inviting and known themes of the past. To highlight the idea of context once again, this striving against (Roadrunner or any song) is in itself a response to the song that could be teased. So it is still the source for the music played whether they play it or not. The jam, then, is received by the community which creates the art's full manifestation and here we go arguing about the supreme jam or the roadrunner tease.
Intentionality is a debate for another day.
I remember thinking they were going to -> Where It's At in the Went DWD..But maybe that's just because every time I hear that jam I can tell they're just waiting to end it and get to the Gin, so imagining segues is totally reasonable.
Now let's drive on 128 after dark and try to figure out what's so great about that...
...with the radio on!
Mind-reading for intent is clearly a high burden of proof, so this is an exclusive group, reserved for really obvious instances.
I feel there is room for a second category. Where intent is less conclusive or maybe non-existent. But the band is playing a riff or progression that sounds a lot like something else. I think having a category like this would be useful to many dotnet users and other fans who might not care to get hung up in a binary discussion of "Is this a tease or not?" (in a lot of cases we can't really know without asking the band after the show), but might want to recall a show or recording when they played the riff that sounded like "Single Ladies" or "Roadrunner", for example.
Whether or not it was intended as a tease, a lot of people can and will agree there is a similarity. To me, that is useful information. (Insomuch as any of this nerdery is "useful." )
As far as my recreational pursuits, such as music, I'd prefer to be able to discuss a potential tease and recognize a similarity between two pieces of music (maybe even index these for reference via a database add-on, who knows?) without having to engage in a multi-year masterbatory argument pointed at a binary outcome over something that in all likliehood will never be known to anyone other than (maybe) the 4 people that created the art.
Also key and tempo are not copyrighted components of a song (they aren't integral to what constitutes a certain song). I could play Chalkdust in any key at any tempo and it would still be Chalkdust.
On the subject of teases, that Mumford & Son's tease is so clearly intentional. You can hear Mike stumble on to something similar and then find the right notes. Mike teases all the time without getting credit for it.
The debate continues!
With that in mind, I'm pretty sure Mike is pushing for Boogie On at one point during the Mike's Grove with the bass line he is playing and then I think Trey's nod to that is a blatant tease of his now famous Boogie Jam from Worcester during the Pittsburgh Weekapaug. In other words, Trey saying "yeah Mike, I heard you, this is going to have to do." Am I the only one that hears this?? I think the Boogie push from Mike is during Light, though it may be Simple, I can't remember for absolute certain off of the top of my head.
To me both instances (Mike pushing for it and Trey acknowledging it) are so obvious that I hear them every time I listen to the show.
And also, there are a few different versions of Roadrunner.
the 12/16/99 Tweezer is still the best though.
So whatever.
lol. it sounds nothing like roadrunner.
That would be a strech.I would love to hear another Modern Lovers covers song though.
See you kids on lot Friday! DICKS!!!!!!
How many of you have seen a real live Roadrunner?
Maybe if they ever play the SW we will get a RR!
(Sorry Parker)
Is there an operative definition of "tease" that either includes or excludes intent or coincidence?
The Machine Gun tease before CTL should be listed, its as clear as day. Trey kicks on the Uni-vibe to increase the authenticity. its at :24 in this vid Machine Gun
by accident? after 29 years of playing? there are no accidents. there is only the the 5th diension. all possible connections of space and time are constantly intersecting. if the band played something withiutnknowing it,there is a difference between "accident", and interstellar travel
by accident? after 29 years of playing? there are no accidents. there is only the the 5th diension. all possible connections of space and time are constantly intersecting. if the band played something withiutnknowing it,there is a difference between "accident", and interstellar travel
::flies to Logan::
:::rents bright orange 1972 Camaro, removes T tops:::
::::purchases 40oz Schlitz::::
:::::ceremoniously pours 40 from window whist doing 70mph on 128 through Waltham, Lexington, Burlington, Woburn...:::::
@AlbanyYEM - All I'm going to do here is blow smoke up your ass. Partly because I'm a noob and suck at the Phish but mostly because you're absolutely correct on so many points. Just a few things from your post that resonate with me most strongly:
"Simply, phish did not bubble out of a vacuum; their communication has reference to prior artistic communication."
Phish's influences play a large role in the music they have and continue to produce. They've said as much. But I think that the respect the band has for their musical predecessors is rather unprecedented in music today. One of the reasons I love them is because I think that they can relate to their hardcore fanbase on this level. They're "fanboys" themselves. They understand the obsessive level of interest and the sheer joy that understanding an artists' work on that level brings. And, most importantly, they seem to want to provide their fans with that. The teases might just be another way of asking us "how well are you listening", but I tend to think of them also saying "check out this cool riff!", allowing us greater insight into their influences.
"The best art seems to be that which is holds watershed resonance within a culture."
Absolutely. So often, I think we tend to take the esthetic high-ground and place art in a place beyond the reaches of context. Impossible. And frankly, this idea died well-prior to the rise of Classical Greek philosophy. Indeed, Aristole famously said "The aim of art is not to represent the outward appearance of things, but their inward significance." That "inward significance" is necessarily altered by the context - both external and internal to the artist - in which art is created. As such, "good" art - the salience and value having been determined by the audience - encompasses aspects of the entirety of the environment in which it's generated. And the best art - as you said - records for posterity the "watershed" nature of the moment it came into existence.
"Intentionality is a debate for another day."
True. But in my noob/fangirl mind, I always like to think that Phish is challenging us as listeners and that incorporating teases is just one in a zillion ways that they go about doing this. Whether they are fully aware of this or whether it has simply become an unconscious way in which they bring their audience into the creation of their music doesn't much matter. However, the "what exactly constitutes a tease" debate is a perfect example of engaging the spectator in the process. The riffs they've loved since childhood or have recently become stuck in their heads may just make themselves known even without the conscious attention of the player. Either way, Phish's incorporation of musical quotes, teases, queases, and jams that are eerily reminiscent of another common melody is incredibly effective, IMO, at engaging their audience in active listening/participation. And they are all too eager to learn from our interpretations as they are to give us something to ponder in the first place.
I'm not sure if I'm interpreting any of that correctly, @AlbanyYEM, but I just wanted to say how much I appreciated your post. It was nice to see someone put into words far more eloquently than I could some of the things I've been thinking about recently.
Thank you! And thank you Phish.net!
Ivy
If you are referring to some other part of the song (besides the 12 minute mark), please reply and I'll reconsider, but until then, I'm not buying.
I definitely do think roadrunnder was teased.
RAAAAAADIO ONNNNNN
It was love at first "I'm in love with Massachusetts" hahaha
As you mention Aristotle, I figure I'll just give you some of my own philosophic source-influences here (no philosophy in a vacuum either): Heidegger, Lyotard, and Gadamer. Extremely challenging thinkers but I think more relevant to the post-modern landscape (context) we all live in, including Phish.
That quote from Aristotle makes things a little sticky: the "inward" can refer to either the state created in consciousness when identifying and responding to the source-art or some essentialist quality of the art itself. However, I think your reading is correct as it would be a more Platonic quality for the actual art to hold in itself ontologically the ideal of whatever the viewer finds within it.
I think for Aristotle, art represents a special case of being as something that is purely created with intentionality regarding material and form. This inward quality is thus a response to the combination of these two causes representing a "pure" case of the different Aristotlean causes. The final cause as intention is of course where things get interesting and we see that the art moves beyond that original intent to represent apperceivabe resonance within the culture. Also, a good place to go for the culture/historicity of art is Hegel.
As to your first point, definitely! Phish is without question uniquely reflexive in that regard. Much better fleshed out than I put it. For the second, I'd say that a hermeneutic reading of Aristotle is an excellent interpretation for modern times but is not exactly what he had in mind. Thirdly, yes absolutely. Part of my love for the band is that they are so challenging and seem to somehow be playing directly for me: instigation as impetus for the creation of new art and thought.
Anyway, since you took the time to think about what I said and added some more concrete points I thought I'd be an ass if I didn't respond. Thanks again for the kind and thoughtful words. Also, most of my friends are sick to death of the word "hermeneutic" when applied to phish so its a nice outlet for me...
***What happened to the Mind Left Body tease from Sunday night??? It was up the night of the show and then it disappeared. I thought I heard it at least, even if it was four notes, but I was already hoping they'd do it that morning. Would make sense at a show in SF.
Also, what M&S tease?
On that much we can all agree.
But in the end, the activity is pretty fun and many people enjoy it. That's not going to change. This is one of those special little wrinkles that make Phish so fabulous. We spent a year (collectively) arguing one tiny little point, so insignificant that 99% of people never knew it existed, smarter individuals might say this is a symptom of insanity."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**** i think the above is all very true. plus, (from what ive heard/read) we all hear very differently for many different reasons and our ears actually adjust pretty darn well to sounds/music the longer we listen to it.....so if u have a "crappy" AUD of a good show, bear with it and after listening for a while, it likely wont sound so crappy anymore!
the second point i take from this is that phish is great because if i hear it and you dont, we are BOTH right!