I did; well, at least I thought I did. Then I tried to cut the more succint points and just butchered the thing - sorry. It wasn't some 'covert' shot. I read all your stuff. In fact, if it wasn't for your recent bit comparing the recent DWD to the Went Gin (man do I get tired of those comparisons; I wouldn't have gone back - I've got DWD malaise). Off-topic, but I wasn't taken aback at first. Tired, I suppose. But it's all I've been listening too, lately.

At the end of the recording posted here - one of the reasons I look to your reviews is to see what I should buy - I do here Tweezer-prise. I honestly do.... Maybe it's the power of suggestion, but really up through Trey's decision to shred, I simply totally hear it from Page, and those bass notes from Mike.... But whatever. I could totally be wrong. Point is, you're right, it's not a song; it's the culmination of a song I considered Tweezer in the moment, and more so, after repeated listens.

Okay, droll: Agreed. You must admit that you write with confidence and verve; I just thought it weak, coming from you. It seemed more like fan-boy stuff than analysis.

Let me get to one point you raise, first. The Live Phish series is different from .com, correct? So it's kind of, regarding LP vs .com, apples and oranges, as those shows are, amazingly, available all but day of?

I'm totally new here. So your third point, particularly the parenthetical: I don't get it.

That said (or even without that said) regarding the '14 and '15 shows - that is a clever point. And perhaps you are right.

I did note that I'd be happy to read discussions regarding other song listings; I wasn't trying to bog down this site (despite how it probably seems).

Re: the Caspian jam actually being a Tweezer jam - by that logic, when they go into Slave to the Traffic Light in the 12/9/94 Tweezer (and that is roughly *ten thousand times* more clearly Slave than the jam in the 8/22/15 Caspian is Tweezer), it should really be marked as Tweezer -> Slave to the Traffic Light -> Jam. That ain't how this works. It might *sound* like a jam that comes out of a Tweezer, but it isn't.

First, one mistake, if that's what you're pointing out, doesn't justify another. Second, if you're pointing out a different running order, this sequence should look:

Tweezer> Caspian-> Tweezer-> Jam.

But again, I don't hear enough 'jam,' to warrant the designation. Jumping someone who wants to play off the word 'jam' with honey, or some other sweet food, I get it....

What I do hear is a clear reentry into Tweezer, some cool 'hose' ala Bing 95 (but FAR less so, I should note), with Page's chording (and the band's collective playing throughout - it wouldn't make fore a great standalone song) and such bringing to mind a familiar sound/structure.

I have some time now, but not that much. So I've called to mind shows I was at, and maybe haven't listened to in a while, like Ventura 97, with a different sandwich. And what I noticed is that ideas created in the Bowie emerge out of the Cities (and of course the Bowie too).

Or even Jones Beach 95 with a real DEG that you could hear.... The Tweezer that 'returns' isn't so much Tweezer as the ideas created in what "Y"ou call hose or whatnot.

(I still wish that copy sounded a bit better....)

That (the idea/or theme) even more than the Tweezer riff (which I did hear) is what informs my position.

And I do go into this sort of stuff looking to have my mind changed.

But take care. I hope there's new show material for you to analyze before Mexico.

@n00b100 said:

@raidcehlalred said:

I could be totally alone here, and that's fine. To the contributors, both staff and mega-fans, I totally respect your opinions. (Especially to you all writing here.) But I've always found the type-II designation sort of pedantic and embarrassing. I was born after the Dead were playing their coolest music, but I started seeing Phish when they began creating theirs; and I never heard of the designation until - I don't know even know when. So there is that.

But say one wants to use that argument here (that 'They've gone type-II;' it's strange to type). Well that doesn't add up.

Because from at 24.00 (above) through Trey at 25.20 or whatever.... He's totally reentered Tweezer - using effects to 'echo' the riff, no less. And Mike is totally with him. The band is clearly back in Tweezer. Type-II playing (or jamming) has nothing to do with it, as they are clearly within the confines of a recognizable song structure.

That there are many legendary Tweezers has nothing to do with it either (I say this since 'logic' was mentioned / that position has no basis in logic).

And I'll read anything anyone wants to post about cool jams and how they should be labeled; but using another show as 'evidence' doesn't hold up either.

The band leaves Tweezer for Caspian. And they leave Caspian for Tweezer (with Trey, before, and quite near those major bass bombs, flirting heavily with Reprise - Page too). They simply decide to shred, instead, inside the easily recognized confines of a song structure.

And we know what song that is.

Practically this entire post is in reply to what I wrote. Gotta hit that "reply" button, man.

1. I kinda find the whole "Type II" thing embarrassing too, mainly b/c it leads to a lot of "h3tty jams uber alles" fans that can miss the forest for the trees, but that's not really why I brought it up. I brought it up because @GUMBY's corollary arguments w/r/t Mike and Page playing Tweezer are irrelevant. The band, itself, was in a jam that was neither Caspian NOR Tweezer at that point. You're telling me that hose jam at the end of Caspian is "clearly within the confines of a recognizable song structure" of ANY song Phish has wrote? I gotta hear this song, it rules!

2. The position that you state isn't based in logic wasn't meant to be; it was meant to be a droll throwaway closing sentence. It wouldn't affect my life very much at all if Caspian had this jam "taken away from it". I'll note that the position I DID invoke logic over was not rebutted at all in your reply.

3. The reason to bring up other shows as "evidence" is because a) there is precedent for Tweezer sandwiches, lots and lots of it, and b) it's worth noting how the setlist team dealt with that precedent in the past. It's human beings that make the .net setlists. They're not just handed down from on high (far from it, actually).

4. One last thing - you ever buy shows from LivePhish.com? Whenever there's a Tweezer sandwich, they will *always* create a new track for the second Tweezer, because they, too, have had to deal with Tweezer sandwiches before. 2/20/93. Bomb Factory. 12/14/95 (as noted above). 7/27/14. 8/15/15. Every last one of them accounts for a second Tweezer when there's a second Tweezer track to be made.

Magnaball Tweezer -> Caspian? No second Tweezer track. Maybe .net's team aren't the only people we should be taking this up with?